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“Blacks Are Like Lemmings In General Elections”.And there you have it. One statement, by a former member of Active Rain letting us know quite succinctly that racism is alive and well in the real estate blogosphere.
Last week a furor erupted over at Active Rain. As you may know. AR is a real estate blog community which serves as a watercooler of sorts for the real estate industry.
In a heated post about the coming Presidential campaign Bill Burress, wrote the following:
“If Hillary gets the Democrat nomination, expect Blacks to vote for her. Blacks are like lemmings in general elections. The vast majority of Blacks vote Democrat.”
Subsequent to this obvious racial slur being published, AR management acted swiftly, and in my opinion correctly, and terminated Mr. Buress’ privileges on AR.
Jonathan Washburn and the other executives of AR issued a statement that decried Mr. Burress statement and made it clear that such racist remarks would not be acceptable in any fashion and admonished others from following Burress’ path of misguided reliance on Free Speech doctrine.
In part the statement read.., “we determined (Burress’ statement) to be hate speech which is a violation of our community guidelines and could potentially be a violation of fair housing guidelines. We will not tolerate hate speech on ActiveRain.”
AR Guidelines state that ActiveRain is a place where real estate professionals can network with their peers and discuss industry insider topics. “It is also a public forum where consumers can pull back the curtain and see what the real estate industry is really about. Because of this level of transparency and openness, ActiveRain members must remain zealous in their quest to represent our industry in as true and professional of a light as possible.”
If this is anything close to being representative of the membership’s view of Black Americans then the transparency that Active Rain seeks may end up being it’s downfall. Cultivating a network harbored by racists can not be tolerated in today’s R.E. net.
That is not to say that this is the case at all. Actually the management’s quick and cutting response is indicative of their commitment to root out hate mongers and racial discriminators.
However the transparency of a blog has revealed a very sinister demon living inside of ActiveRain.
It is appalling that most of the comments made, nearly ALL of the comments made by members of AR following Burress’ dismissal were actually in SUPPORT of Burress. What can these people be thinking?
Mary Thomas, an agent and member from ReMax PV Realty, the self dubbed Palos Verdes Realtor 4 God said “If he (Burress) was so offensive why do you see only one or two against him and the majority for him?”
Good question Mary! Where were all the thousands of members of AR who denounce hate speech and vitriolic racist slurs. Surely there were more than “one or two” to speak out against Burress. Where are all the minority members making a stand against this?
Then I realized. Then it hit me all at once. There aren’t any. Well, maybe there are a few. But I realized the demographics of the reality. How many Black Americans are there participating in the real estate blogosphere. I seldom see more than a couple familiar Black members on AR. I never, NEVER see any Black real estate agents on any of the other blogs I visit. I never even see comments that lead me to Black real estate agents or their websites. AR seems to be a bastion of White American ideology.
While there are racists in all segments of society, White’s don’t have the market cornered on that by any means, it is apparent that a discussion on justifying one’s commission is more important than supporting the denouncement of racism and hate filled speech.
Should I dare write a post about Realtors not being worth a dime in a transaction the multitudes would come out of the woodwork with keyboard pitchforks bearing torches to seek retribution.
Should I dare write that this industry of real estate is run by an organization that is a kin to a sham Baghdad Bob-like President I would be vilified and possibly called a piece of human excrement.
Should I dare write that the business model as we now know it is obsolete and inhabited by dinosaurs, I would be tarred and feathered by comments by T-Rex wannabe real estate agents.
But say “Blacks are like lemmings“…well, what’s the big deal? He was misunderstood! What about free speech?
Is this is how Active Rain members want to be seen by the consumer and others?
Well Ms. Thomas, and others like you, I must tell you, that as a Black, Conservative, I find Mr. Burress’ statement extremely offensive, and quite slanderous. Albeit not at all original or conveying any new or real breaking news of thought. Those of you who feel it falls under the free speech doctrine should actually read what free speech is. It does not allow you in any way shape or form to say anything without reproach.
While the truth is an absolute defense of slander, Burress’ statement that “Blacks are like lemmings”can not in any way be an absolute defense. In fact as I am a Conservative, my sole belief would render such a defense absolutely moot.
Once printed on Active rain, it could also be considered libel and without defense as well. Accordingly Active Rain was right in their actions to terminate Burress and to remove all instances of his posted hate speech.
I am the first to stand behind those with opposing viewpoints. My wife and I have different views on gay marriage. But we can discuss issues without having talk denigrate to insults.
An important thing to note in regards to Active Rain is that you are there based upon privilege, not right. You who believe this was a free speech issue need to understand that “your blog” there is not your property. You may call it “your blog”, but trust me..you don’t own it. Not one single character of text do you own there. As such, the AR management can exercise any discretion they so choose on any post they so choose.
I can’t come in to your house and p#ss on your carpet…and you can’t do it on AR either. I applaud AR and what is really upsetting is the multitude of supporters who feel that what he said was acceptable and felt that AR’s punishment was too severe.
Are you serious, do you really want the American consumer looking at Active Rain as a haven for wayward racist real estate agents?
Matthew Rathbun, an agentgenius contributor and a man who is studying to be a pastor said, “After reading this, I am once again struck by the audacity of individuals to try and represent a belief system as a whole. Making such comments about African Americans was not based on statistics – it was intentionally inferring that they were beneath your “intellectual elitism.”
The argument that what he was said was not inappropriate is argumentum ad hominem. He made statements to get a reaction – he got one, and an appropriate reaction it was.”
Surely there are more who feel like Mr. Rathbun. I’m not talking about those who stood behind AR’s decision because of potential Fair Housing laws violations or because of AR having the right to dismiss Burress.
Where are the throngs of members who will stand like Mr. Rathbun and denounce Burress for spewing vitriol and hate. Where are you?
The silence of the members speaking out against this racist is excruciatingly loud. I for one was never going to visit Active Rain again but I realized that is what racists want. I was not going to write this story because I figured somewhere, on some blog, someone would surely stand up and say something. But again, the silence speaks volumes.
It’s a shame, with all of the blogs out there with high traffic and great readership the silence was a clear and open statement that hopefully this would just go away, or worse, it just wasn’t that big of a deal.
I am sure some of you will even say, “Bill’s a good guy, he even had a few black friends”. that’s always a good one. Or “Bill’s not a racist, he knows a couple of black people in his church”. How about this one, “Bill can’t be a racist, his kids have Black friends”.
Well look at this image that Bill “the guy who isn’t a racist” posted on his blog and tell me if this doesn’t indicate that he was just a wee bit racist.
Being white, you may pontificate as to what is and what is not a racial slur, being Black in a White man’s world, I have to endure it’s cold reality while you do so.
Barry, I hear what you’re saying and I wish that more people would support AR’s decision to take decisive action on this format.
However, I don’t think the in this case silence is the same as support. In this case, I think it’s simply a matter of individual members not wanting to get more involved in an argument than in their actual purpose for being on AR.
I am passionate about people being treated with respect and felt compelled to voice that opinion, but I have limited myself from going back into the “frey” as AR has resolved the issue, the supporters of this individual are severely diluted and haven’t a real grasp of what occurred.
The Professionals who are on AR are not there to debate Religion, Politics or Discrimination. They are suppose to be there to build their business and to use that tool to serve that purpose.
I wish more industry people would get involved in removing fear, hatred and judging from this world; but for some of them it’s “someone else’s problem.”
Racist, Ignorant, whatever, it doesn’t matter. that sort of mentality is not healthy or productive, particularly in an industry where we are regulated heavily by fair housing laws.
Making excuses is not acceptable, either. regardless of “what a nice guy he is”, he crossed a serious line here, and it’s a relief to see AR standing up for the principles that real estate professionals should be following.
Maybe it’s time that AR got away from the petty water-cooler chatter that has become so common and limit conversation to relevant topics, not the gender or skin color of our presidential candidates? Just a thought….
Barry… over the top. Mischaracterization? Closer to hatchet job.
On part II of the thread from Jon explaining why he did what he did, of the comment expressing an opinion, there were 46 in support of removing Bill Burress, and 4 supporting Bill. In Part I of that post, comments were running 93 to 13 in favor of Jon’s position.
Of course, if you look in the group that Bill started and moderated on Active Rain, which I actually am a member of, the comments have been more even… but it is pretty misleading to single out a group with 250 members in an organization of 90,000 members, and then see that there are a couple dozen comments in support of racist speech… and extrapolate that to the entire 90,000 member community.
Since I don’t how much actual research you did on this post, I don’t know if you’ve read my opinion, and I’ll assume that you haven’t. I HATE to use the word racist. It has been so watered down by illegitimate use and use for shock value as to be almost meaningless, but Bill’s comments were actually racist in nature. I don’t believe that he meant them to be, and I would bet that he would retract them if given the opportunity… but he said them and has taken the appropriate heat.
And finally, way to pull a part of a comment so far out of context as to be almost laughable. You should probably mention that the first part of his comment stated that the vast majority of African-Americans (he said Blacks) vote Democrat. He should have stopped there… Of course, keep in mind that the post he was commenting on was by a black agent entitled “Would you vote for a white candidate for President?” In his his post, he introduces the concept of “Acceptable Racial Preference” which he uses in defense of 91% of blacks were voting for Obama (with only a small percentage citing a racial preference but not broken out statistically in his post), while 13% of the whites citing race as a factor, 75% are voting for Clinton. There are no citations of his data sources in the post.
Again, Bill’s comment was clearly inappropriate… even racist in nature. But your shots here were cheap and sensationalist.
Hey Lane..here’s my research..”Black’s are lemmings” ..race card picture…out of context..expected from those who have no idea what it’s like to be continually opressed simply because of the color of one’s skin.
Case closed, he’s a racist!
Barry, according to the email your system sent out, you edited your comment… a lot.
The research I was talking about (and you are smart enough to know this) was regarding this statement: “It is appalling that most of the comments made, nearly ALL of the comments made by members of AR following Burress’ dismissal were actually in SUPPORT of Burress. What can these people be thinking?
Mary Thomas, an agent and member from ReMax PV Realty, the self dubbed Palos Verdes Realtor 4 God said “If he (Burress) was so offensive why do you see only one or two against him and the majority for him?â€
Good question Mary! Where were all the thousands of members of AR who denounce hate speech and vitriolic racist slurs. Surely there were more than “one or two†to speak out against Burress. Where are all the minority members making a stand against this?”
I go on and find that there are 139 comments supporting Jon and the decision to remove Bill from A|R and 17 comments in support of Bill (some calling for less severe sanctions, some pointing out others they feel were inappropriate). And despite there being an obvious 8:1 ration you were only able to find a couple of people that were upset by Bill’s statement? Even on the posts in his own group the comments weren’t running like that.
So, based on that single comment, which you intentionally pulled from all context, you are going to brand the man a racist? I’ll certainly agree that his comment WAS racist… I’ve already stated as much. But, unless you are ready to brand EVERYONE based on their single comments, you ought to back off from that.
If you want to debate the Jesse Jackson’s Rainbow/Push Coalition and their use of race baiting and blackmail, that is a whole different thing…
And to say that I can’t comment because I’m not black is also cheap. Let’s talk about the terrible oppression you are under as a VERY successful investor and promoter. Obviously you have found a way. All that you are doing with that comment is working AGAINST there ever being honest dialogs about race in this country.
I could just as easily say that you can’t comment about the white experience. Instead, I would rather that we be honest with each other and keep communication open.
Frankly, while I have come to expect the cheap shot and sensationalism from you (it makes for great link bait, and you are a very good promoter) I actually expect better of you when it comes to real issues. It is one thing to argue real estate in order to increase readership. Making controversial statements to drive traffic is fine. But, to disparage 90,000 members of A|R because of one person’s comment is taking it too far. Especially when it is obvious that the community at large was NOT supportive of the attitude.
I swear, I turn my back for a second on this industry and wammy – another drama. This is like Dallas set in Real Estate.
What the hell was he thinking to say that?
I am not in support of a statement like that and find it overtly offensive having many African American friends that I can fairly say are NOT lemmings.
Now, as for throwing someone off a social network for that statement – it is within their right. It is a professional network where business is done.
Barry: I went back and re-read the comments on the post. Maybe these folks could have been more forthright in denouncing such comments, but I think that there were a number of folks who did not support the author of the comments.
The fact that there weren’t more comments maybe because no one wanted to go down the road that we have here. See I respect both you and Lane and I think that both have valid points; but from the standpoint of most real estate agents, this is a drain from their business. And either side is going to tick people off.
Lane: I appreciate you trying to put perspective to the comments, seeing as this is a largely politically incorrect stance. I suppose I have a personal difficulty separating a person’s written statements from their potentially nefarious. Everyone has bias with their heterogeneity, man versus women, US versus everyone, Redskins versus Cowboys, etc.. Typically ‘garbage in; garbage out” and “such as a man says; so is he.”
I guess my question is how many of such comments does it take before an entity should take a stance? I’m not being cynical, I guess I really am wondering. Minimal tolerance works for me. I’ve read very little about this, other than the fact that there have been other issues with this individual speaking out against other groups, to include those making lifestyle decisions that are not like his own.
I’m white – so who am I to say who should and shouldn’t be offended? I was offended…
Lane..what email would that be? please do not make false accusations for the sake of your own fallacies.
1. We hardly need to resort to sensationalism our numbers speak well for our content.
2. Mr. Burress does not need me to sensationalize for him. He did a great job on his own..or is that not a sensational comment he made and picture he posted.
3. I took his words out of context? Let me ask you in what context, ANY context, is saying “Blacks are like lemmings”? I would love to hear that one.
4. You wrote…intentionally pulled from all context, you are going to brand the man a racist? I’ll certainly agree that his comment WAS racist..Are you kidding?
5. Most of the comments you refer to were in support of Active Rain’s decision to terminate Buress. Find me 139 statements denouncing the racist slur that Buress made. I’ll be waiting.
6. I did not say you could not comment about the situation, what I said is you don’t have to endure it and have not had to.
This is not a post I took lightly. I have received numerous private emails asking me to pursue this further.
No, I’m not going to defend the Jesse Jackson’s of the world and if you have listend to our show you know we have taken him to task on many occasions.
Racism in any form is not to be tolerated and is the sign of a small mind.
Buress may have made a mistake. He may be a nice guy…in your eyes. I doubt that many minorities would at this point want him representing them in a real estate transaction.
There is no argument that you can wage that would be successful in defending his statement as not being racist..unless you are speaking to other racists.
As for my post being a “cheap shot, he can call me if he wants, we would love to have him on the show. FYI..no one returned our calls today. So much for your “cheap shot claim”!
The feed from your site comments says:
There is a new comment on the post “”Blacks Are Like Lemmings In General Elections” | Does Racism Have A Home On Active Rain?”.
http://www.realestateradiousa.com/blog/2008/05/27/blacks-are-like-lemmings-in-general-elections-does-racism-have-a-home-on-active-rain/
Author: Barry Cunningham
Comment:
hey Lane..here’s my research..”Black’s are lemmings”
Case closed, he’s a racist!
See all comments on this post here:
http://www.realestateradiousa.com/blog/2008/05/27/blacks-are-like-lemmings-in-general-elections-does-racism-have-a-home-on-active-rain/#comments
1. Your numbers speak well for your traffic. I know you generate good traffic. But, that doesn’t say your content is informational or good, that says you have a good traffic. Posts you have made to Bloodhound and posts in Brett’s name on A|R saying things about real estate agents… drive traffic. Are the traffic numbers all from people that love RER… or people that are wondering what is going to come out of your head next? I would bet that only a small percentage of you traffic results in contact or comment… most just read it.
2. Bill made his move and it was bad. I’m sure that he would much prefer this whole thing to go away…
3. There isn’t a context I can think of that makes it an appropriate context, but it is a whole lot different as a stand alone comment than it is as a reply to someone talking about whether black people are going to vote for Democrats if Obama isn’t in the race.
4. You specifically stated that he is a racist. You have gleaned that from one comment. From one comment, we could then destroy the careers of EVERY politician, radio talk show host and CEO… anyone that has ever had a stupid opinion. Of course I’m sure that you’ve never said anything stupid that you wish you could have back. I’m equally sure that you wouldn’t admit to it at this point. But don’t worry, I’m not going to start combing the radio shows to see if I can come up with a quote.
5. That is a truly stupid statement. you have a membership. How many do I need to post… The vast majority of comments supporting Jon’s decision to remove Bill from A|R were also decrying the statement he made… including mine.
6. It is a pretty solid insinuation from the statement that you made that anyone that hasn’t had to live through being black wouldn’t understand… if one doesn’t understand, their comments aren’t worthy… and if their comments aren’t worthy, they should just stay quiet. But the problem is that you have made a judgement about me from looking at my picture. You don’t know my backstory… you don’t know anything but what you might have picked up from my blogs and comments. Racial bigotry isn’t the only type… And black people aren’t the only ones that are racially stereotyped.
I’m not here defending Bill’s statement. It should be pretty clear that I don’t like it and can’t defend it. I am, however, defending A|R. And you painted with a pretty broad brush. Despite hundreds of people vocally supporting the ouster of a member for making the statement, you characterize it as only a few not supporting him. When, it is QUITE OBVIOUS that the facts do not support your statement. In fact, there were only a few people supporting him.
I certainly am not trying to support racism. I would go beyond small mind and say it is a sign of flat out stupidity. People that can’t manage to achieve on their own need to manufacture people that they can be “above”. Belittling others is just a way to artificially inflate their own importance.
And at this point I don’t see the community at large rushing to his aid… no more than I see everyone rushing to the aid of Jeremy Wright. Make the statement, take the heat.
Again, you are putting up a straw man that I am somehow defending the statement. you have an A|R account… or did… and can see that I wrote against what he said and posted it in HIS group well before I saw your comments. So, you might as well just drop that one right now.
I can’t say I blame him for not taking your call. He is probably hiding under his desk wishing this would die away… I sure as heck wouldn’t want to re-live this glory day. Do you want to go back to the dumbest things you’ve said and live them over and over?
And finally, the “cheap shot” is at A|R, not Bill. He earned his shot… the other 89,375 of us didn’t.
Hi matthew..thanks for taking the time to comment here. There is little good to come from this issue if people don’t realize the error ehre. I agree many may have elected to stay out of the fray for fear of being pulled in.
However many have voiced opinions about so many other benign issues that they obviously have the time to respond.
Here’s one to lob out…just as with others who have had the finger of racism pointed at them, why has the formerly verbose Buress not apologized for his remarks publicly.
It’s odd that he has not. which indicates that he stands behind his words and therefore those left in his wake defending him look foolish in doing so.
Lane,
I support AR for what it is designed to be not the hijacked reality it has become. If you knew what you were talking about you would know that We had Bob Stewart on from AR and support that which he and the others are doing 100%. Our AR accopunt is dormant because we don’t need to use it. We’re not into the water cooler stuff.
the problem here is you keep equating a “stupid” statement to a racist statement.
You stated…” I am, however, defending A|R. And you painted with a pretty broad brush. Despite hundreds of people vocally supporting the ouster of a member for making the statement, you characterize it as only a few not supporting him”
140/80,000 =a real small amount by any stretch of the imagination.
Tired of trying to reason when one can’t accept reason. Don’t worry..I know where there are hundreds of those who may think like you and will accept your rantings.
Have a great day…and great post! Here’s your 10 points..Happy?
Hi Barry-I listened to the show and thought it was excellent. Yes the post did disgust me..I was lead there…and I commented a few times. I am extremely cautious in posts like that..because I do wear a REALTOR hat 24/7. I think many feel that way as well. To me, its really sad that some don’t see the wrong, to me not only is it sad but scary but very real. I am part asian and part american…thank goodness I was adopted..because if I stayed in Asia..I would have been an outcast and growing up in the us was not easy as a kid. It was my fault because of Pearl Harbor even though I was born 21 years later. It has gotten better but not enough…I think not only did this situation affect the REALTOR profession its a reminder of how far people need to adjust their thinking…it creates another generation of hate…of predjudice and the worst…division. People need to ask themselves How would they feel if their grandchild spoke the same way. I can’t imagine hating someone..I didn’t know.. because of race..or education, or even gender..it has nothing to do with me understanding because I am asian..it because we are people..created equal.. ..and we have so much in common…with the same goals and dreams in mind.
I will say that I found your show very entertaining and really thought provoking and I got a few giggles too!
Midori..thanks for listening. We try to be both informative and entertaining. Discussing an issue like racism can be very touchy but it needs to be addressed. The only way we can stop it is to expose it!
Barry,
I’m sorry that you’ve come down so hard on Active Rain due to a racist comment by one member. That’s one member out of almost 90,000 people. Most members did not read Bill’s blog nor the blog where the comment was posted, and hence knew nothing about it. Once it was brought to the attention of more and more members, more and more spoke out against it and wrote posts that were direct offshoots of it clearly saying that bigotry in any fashion is not acceptable neither in the outside world, nor in Active Rain.
Please do not count me as a racist just because I’m white and a member of Active Rain. I most definitely am not.
If you visited some of the blogs at AR, besides the few that you have visited, you will find the hundreds you are speaking about who are against Bill Burress’ comment and against racism. You can visit mine for starters, there are close to 70 comments on it already and the number is still going up.
Please do your homework before grouping us all in with white racists just because of one comment by one member.
thanks
Jo
Jo Anne I don’t know you and I would never accuse anyone of being a racist that did not show information through actions or writings or utterings to the contrary.
I do not feel Bill’s comments were a racist shadowing of Active Rain. In fact we are Active Rain fans and you would hear that in our interviews.
Your comment here is misguided becasue neither you nor the membership are accused of being racists..that would be foolish.
Slow to act, and slow to respond maybe but racist no.
By the way..I just read your last post. I saw this comment:
“I don’t care what their skin colour is nor what their religion is nor what their political or sexual preference is nor if they are male or female. None of that matters on the Active Rain team, as far as I’m concerned.”
however, I still did not see anything in your post that says you condemn the statement that Burress as being racist. I must have missed your public denouncement of his racist statement.
Unfortunately I just saw the following post on ActiveRain.
http://activerain.com/blogsview/527617/What-It-Could-Be
I don’t want to be associated with a site that contains images like that. This goes well beyond the boundries of political satire or parody. It is just ugliness.
And 17/80,000 is a whole lot smaller. The vast majority of the people on ActiveRain have NO idea what this is about. They didn’t read the original post. They haven’t read any of the other posts… they probably haven’t logged in since Groundhog Day. But, of those expressing an opinion, 87% is a pretty strong indicator.
BTW, I haven’t equated “stupid” to racist. I have equated racist to stupid. There is a difference. One needn’t be a racist to make a stupid statement… but one does need a certain level of stupidity to make a racist statement. At the very least, to be rash and not think things through.
Of course, if we really want to talk about racism, this should be a completely different discussion, and I would bet that we agree more than we don’t. But, I will continue to stand by the statement that you look like you are trying to condemn the members of ActiveRain because not enough of them have spoken out. Well, there is NOTHING on A|R that has brought out more than a couple hundred comments. And a lot of people just want to stay away from this because it is too hot. The FACT remains that 8X as many people spoke against Bill and his comment than spoke for either.
How many people have read this post and not commented? Are those people tacitly supporting racism because they aren’t speaking out against it? And what about the people that haven’t read it? Are they supporting racism because they are unaware? You are not using your logic and reasoning… and I know you have them… when you say things like 140/80,000 is a pretty small number.
I’m tired of debating someone that knows they are beat and keeps trying to change the direction of the debate looking for traction…
I am an AR Member, and I was gone for the weekend when that Post was written. When I came back I saw one post about it and I commented. Then I saw another and refused to comment…….some of the members that supported Bill including the one you mentioned, and the one that took over Bills Group are making comments that I don’t agree with, nor want to have my name associated with. That’s why I didn’t respond on any of those Posts.
I did write my own non-threatning Post on Rationalizing Prejudice Behaviors…..I wanted to link it here, but it is Members Only so I couldn’t per AR’s guidelines. And the only reason it is Members Only is many people aren’t comfortable commenting on a Public Post like that.
I was invited into that group Bill founded, but after reading a few posts quite a while ago, I decided I didn’t want to be associated with people that behaved like they did. My opinion is Religion and Politics are best left out of Real Estate. And as far as supporting Bill……absolutely not, nor his supporters. I think AR made the only responsible decision, and now need to wathc the supporters…….like those pictures in your commnet section.
LAne..LOL..I suppose you think this post is okay as well..
http://activerain.com/blogsview/527617/What-It-Could-Be
please by all means scurry back to AR, it is such a nice place lately!
Frank,
Yes it’s out of control over there. The management sure does have its hands full. I wish Bob, Rich and Jonathan good luck dealing with an issue that could spiral out of control very quickly over there and if not quelled soon could harm their business.
Lane: You did not ask me my racial background yet cast me as black. And for clarification, the notion of Acceptable Racial Preference is something that applies to ALL races, not just blacks. It was used to explain actions by black voters in favor of Barack and white voters in favor of Hillary and it applies to any election in which there are candidates of different races. No preference was given to either side. The stats were taken from an article post-PA primary which I believe was in the New York Times.
Barry: Thank you for your blog post, I do like it and understand all you’re saying. I wasn’t really offended but that’s probably a result of my background and my because I easily dismiss ignorant statements. Having said that, I do agree with Lane in that the vast majority of people on AR who know of this event oppose it.. If you limit your AR exposure to Silent Majority, you’d never know that. There are some good people in that group (I’m a member as well), but unfortunately there are those who somehow just don’t see the light. The notion of Bill being kicked off consumes them so much that they can’t comprehend that he wrote something inappropriate.
On a different note, I listened to your show this past weekend for the first time ever and it was great. I believe it was a rerun but good stuff anyway. I didn’t know Mary McKnight had such a potty mouth. Hahaha! I’ll be tuning in more often.
Hi Kathy..and Tchaka,
AR is a good network. I like what it stands for, it helped us tremendously and I support the platform wholeheartedly.
We’re all in this thing to advance ourselves in one way or another. I don’t feel it’s appropriate to denigrate a race to make a point.
I have had some very heated discussions with many people in comments and on blogs. Just as my discussions with Lane above. He and I have wrestled on many issues.
We state our points. We support our stance and I respect him for being agressive and standing up for what he believes. Although at times you may see anger or frustation in what he writes or what I write, he is most welcome here and I don’t delete what he says. I think that makes him comfortable because he knows he can engage freely.
He and I have also had terms of agreement on posts.
This is important because despite disagreement, neither he nor I have had to , nor would I and neither would he, resort to the kind of remarks that Burress made.
The fact that Buress never recanted or apologized speaks for the man’s character.
When racism rears it’s ugly head in any fashion I believe it is important to expose it. Root it out and stomp on it.
In my opinion, staying silent perpetuates the problem. If you have read what was recently posted, you see that those guys who are roaches over at Active Rain are continuing with their racially incensed soapbox.
Racism is not a channel to be skipped over or avoided. It must be taken off the air.
We are a small blog compared to Active Rain. I suspect many ..many people are watching and it is quite likely that some major news organization may pick up on this.
That dosn’t bode well for the resource that is Active Rain.
Thanks for visiting and Tchaka, thanks for listening. Yes, darling Mary is truly a fireplug! But she’s all heart and she knows her stuff. We can attest first hand.
Hi Barry…
I know that sometimes we (you and I) don’t see eye to eye but I did want to speak up on behalf of many of The Active Rain Members. One of the problems we’ve encountered is that our words (on the issue at hand) are falling on deaf ears. The folks who follow Bill have their own belief system. You can not, under any circumstances, argue anothers beliefs. Some of these folks are so close minded that nothing anyone says will make them ponder what has transpired. They don’t feel they’ve done anything wrong. In my opinion it’s racism hiding behind a cross.
As you can see, by following the posts themselves, many of the Members have tried to speak up. They’ve discovered what I already knew…Can you say ‘exercise in futility’?
There is also the matter of Members not wanting their good name and reputations associated with the Blog posts in question. I am speaking to you as one of those Members. My silence, and the silence of other Members, in no way indicates I am being supportive. It does however indicate that I know where and when to type my words
Have a great day…ROAR
Barry,
I have renounced Bill’s comment as being racist in other posts that talk directly in support of Bill and his comment. There have been many more racist, bigoted, disrespectful posts/comments on AR than just Bills….if I were to have included them in my post, I would have had a long list and many of them have been removed. My recent post that you have taken a portion of above, was not written to specifically target just Bill’s comment. Other things are going on as well.
They need more people working behind the scenes monitoring posts and removing those that fall within the above list. I also believe they have to start getting a handle on this now as it’s getting worse and many people I know are considering leaving AR.
The latest post in question, as referred to by Frank above, was flagged by myself as soon as it appeared and brought to the attention of management at AR. Whether or not it gets removed remains to be seen.
Jo
Lemmings:
Driven by strong biological urges, they will migrate in large groups when population density becomes too great. Due to their association with this odd behaviour, lemming migration is a frequently-used metaphor in reference to people who go along unquestioningly with popular opinion, with potentially dangerous or fatal consequences.
His comments although rude were not “racist” nor “bigoted”. He has prejudged the behavior of black voters by stating his own opinion that the majority vote democratic. That’s all there was to it.
Gecko – I would agree that Bill’s statement was not bigoted, but it WAS racist. When he said that black voters voted overwhelmingly for Democrats, he was correct. When he said they did so because they were lemmings, he inferred that they couldn’t make their own decisions and went along with the crowd.
Barry – I can’t defend that post… but I haven’t defended Bill’s either… you keep inferring that I am defending the people that are posting inappropriate posts and comments.
Tchaka – Between your picture and one of the comments that you made I would have assumed you were black… but the bottom line is that REGARDLESS of your race, the statement would border on inappropriate. What you are saying is that there is an acceptable level of racial bias. I certainly can’t argue that it doesn’t happen, I can argue that it isn’t right. If I am hiring an assistant, their color should have NO bearing on the decision… only their qualifications. Whether they are white, black, Asian, Jewish, Slavic, Latin… you are getting the idea… those aren’t qualifications. Even if I need a Spanish speaking assistant… if the best qualified person happen to be black and Jewish, but fluent in Spanish, then they are the best qualified.
My point is that there may be an assumed level of racial preference, and there most likely is racial preference in many circumstances… but that is exactly what we need to get rid of, not label as acceptable.
In the case of Obama, I don’t like him. It isn’t because he is black, it is because I don’t like where he stands (or doesn’t stand) on issues. I don’t like Clinton… not because she is a woman, but because of her positions on issues. I don’t like McCain, not because he is old, but because of his stances.
Lane..if I inferred your association with Burress ‘ statement in that way I apologize. I am not associating you with a racist comment. Like I said, we may not always agree but that my friend I am not accusing you of.
The reference to Lemmings has to do with “group mentality” not one’s race.
He was refering to the black voters as a group. There are people of all races and political affiliations that think and act in groups, sometimes to their own demise, thus the Lemming metaphor.
His remarks were “prejudice” in nature not racist.
Racism is a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular racial group.
Lane: Based on my picture, people often see me as Israeli (or Mediterranean).
There is absolutely nothing unacceptable about my blog or any statement in it. What I have described is an unfortunate thing people do. I do not condone it – actually I didn’t even judge it – I merely stated that it is done. The label does not mean I accept it, but mankind does it and accepts it (though many may pretend they don’t). The blog does not defend either candidate or its supporters, what the blog does is provide a better yardstick for determining if a voter trend is racist – as opposed to simply going by the broad brush that had been used. I wrote without much passion and certainly without prejudice, to have done so would have compromised the intent.
Gecko: Your definition of lemming is one of several and I read one contributed in a comment that implied a racist undertone. Does that mean Bill Burress is racist? I don’t know him well enough to judge. I can tell you this much, if you walked up to every jovial person you saw and said, “Hi, I’m The Gecko…you sure look gay!”, you probably wouldn’t get the best response each time. But I bet you could find a definition in the dictionary to support your comment.
Barry – Believe me, most people are anti-Bill Burress’ comments on Active Rain. It’s just his extremist friends who are speaking out for him, very loudly. Most of us don’t argue with them past a certain point because it’s like beating your head against a wall. They are not capable of reason or rational discussion. The more we talk about this, the more Bill is feeling like a martyr, as he (and his misguided friends) are pretending he’s being persecuted for being a Christian. No, it’s very simple, Bill was banned for making an unacceptable racist comment.
Chris
Tchaka – Like i said, it doesn’t matter to me what color your skin is, I wouldn’t have changed my opinion no matter whose picture was or wasn’t on the blog. And while some people in society may accept an “ARP”, in real estate we have HUD rules to contend with… so, we can’t allow it in our practice. I would even go so far as to say that we can’t even acknowledge it… Where is Eric Kodner? He and I have butted heads on HUD v. reality, but the point is that I feel your post was borderline. Did it offend me? No, I’m a big boy, and can take it… And, in fact I think it could be an interesting discussion on Whistle Stopper, or another politically oriented forum, but on A|R, there are too many side issues to do your subject justice.
Honestly, I think there needs to be a serious discussion on racism v. bigotry v. prejudice v. hate speech and how they are not all the same, and present different dangers. But even though i post political topics on A|R, I won’t touch that one there because of HUD EHO issues.
Gecko – You aren’t making it any better. Blacks “as a group, not a race” base their voting preferences on group mentality rather than issues? I’ll agree that the Democrat Party assumes they will get the black vote by a wide margin, but instead of assuming that they just will, you might consider that there is a shared reason that they vote similarly. Are Christians lemmings for voting primarily Republican? Or is it that the candidates better reflect their values?
I would also argue that if the conversation is structured the right way, most people I know regardless of color have similar opinions, and would vote conservatively (please don’t confuse that with current GOP candidates)… but they vote a variety of ways for a variety of reasons.
Bill’s comment wasn’t inappropriate because he said a group votes a certain way as a group, but rather because he said they did it without reason or thought… and the inference is that they are doing because they lack reason or thought.
Barry – Like i said, we probably agree on more than we disagree on…
Hello Lane. I just arrived here and was pleased and honored that you mentioned my name, so I figured there was no choice but to jump into the conversation.
You know how I feel about the events of the past week on ActiveRain. The problem won’t go away simply because of the removal of one individual. And it’s extremely unfortunate that ActiveRain winds up getting a bad rap on the Web because of the intolerant and provocative actions of a small minority of its members.
I also believe it’s unfortunate that some on AR chose to sit on the sidelines rather than speak up about the controversy. The silence of some members reminded me a bit of the famous quote by Pastor Martin Niemöller,
“When the Nazis came for the Communists. I remained silent because I wasn’t a Communist.
When they locked up the social democrats, I remained silent because
I was not a social democrat.
When they came for the trade unionists. I remained silent because I wasn’t a trade unionist.
When they came for the Jews. I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew.
When they came for me, there was no one left to speak out.”
Hi Barry,
Not sure why I hadn’t seen this post earlier, and though I had promised not to comment on these posts anymore, I see it is outside of A/R, and really, I just need to throw my two cents in a bit.
Everytime I think about this topic, it really just inflames me, so I just stopped commenting. If I felt that it I was making a difference, I would ignore my own personal negative feelings and go on commenting and commenting ad nauseum, but it wouldn’t serve a purpose.
Why? Jonathan Washburn made it crystal clear as to the reasons for Bill Burress’s dismissal. The comment by Burress was against community guidelines. It was considered hate speech. I considered it hate speech as well.
I am a minority, my biological father was black, my mother is white, so that actually puts me in a minority pool that is the smallest dot under the microscope.
I am very verbal in those posts. The majority of members spoke in favor of Jon’s action. FACT not FICTION.
However, I am not going to have any more headbashing dissertations with the folks on A/R who want to define the word Lemming for me. Uh…no thanks, I’d rather polk pins in my eyeballs.
If you google Bill’s name, as one member said, this incident rears its head promptly on Page 1. That’s justice for sure. What also shows up is the many petitioners who advocated for Bill…..so one way or another their dirty laundry hangs in the public eye for all to see.
Anyone not real estate related or an A/R member who I mentioned this incident just shakes their head or sucks in their breath. These will be the reactions of those just people in the world. For those who don’t see others equally, it’s not worth my bother.
I refuse to add fuel to these people’s fire, and everytime another post is written on this subject, or, regretably, another comment like mine is made, it just adds fuel to their fire. I’d love to see this die on the vine.
There are better things to do with time.
Thankfully ActiveRain also removed Nicholas Goglucci’s post, referenced earlier, which contained a series of offensive images based on Muslim stereotypes that are often used by bigots.
Yeah Frank…that was jus as incendiary
Barry, Looks like you riled everyone up again!! I wrote two posts about Bill being being removed form AR. The first was trying to get the community to find common ground and move forward. Unfortunately, the staunch defenders of Bill didn’t show up. The 2nd one I put up late yesterday was a humorous attempt at pointing out how hypocritical the Bill defenders are. Neither of my posts mentioned racism at all. And for that I may have been wrong.
However, anyone that was familiar with Bill for any length of time, knows that his being removed from AR was about much more than his “lemming” comment. In my opinion Bill should have been removed a long time ago.
Barry, I grew up in the deep south MS, AL, LA and SC in the 60s. I have seen racism in all it’s ugliness. I have seen the men’s group of my Church in Saluda SC pass out KKK fliers after Church. I have watched a KKK cross burning while listening to them sing “Onward Christian Soldiers” as they were preparing to go on a “coon hunt”. It disgusted me when I was 13 and it still disgust me now.
And here I am 40 years later living in Polk county FL and I can assure you racism is alive in well.
I marched with Martin Luther King Jr in AL in the 60s as a child as my white “friends” called me a n……….. lover. I think they hated me as much as they hated you.
We live in a fallen world, my friend, and people are full of hatred. They were then, they are now and they will be tomorrow.
Hey BB..it wasn’t me who riled people up. It’s that bonehead Bill Buress.
Wow…you have quite the story. I am so glad you are willing to share it. I read your story a while back about the guy you befriended who was shot.
I knew then that the guy I sparred with about real estate was indeed one of the good guys in life.
This comment underscores that!
If anyone can help right the ship at AR I am sure it will be you. That’s for a very thought provoking comment.
I missed the referenced post. I am of the thinking that if something racist is said, then someone must comment on the issue – otherwise it simply continues.
Active Rain is what it is. People who gravitate toward New Media will adopt Active Rain, and those who don’t, won’t. Doesn’t matter what segment of society one inhabits, it’s more how aware people are of Social and New Media.
That said, is it implied that this is some sort of institutional racism, where people of color are not welcomed? I don’t think so. I think it is a matter of choice as to who participates.
Personally, AR has good points and bad points. As in any widely-distributed medium, there will be people who eschew common sense and/or who adopt thinking that undermines both the profession and society at large.
If the question is: Is racism alive and well in the US and in the RE industry? It likely is. Unfortunately I live in a town heavily tested by Fair Housing simply because it’s one of the most segregated cities in the US – Dayton, Ohio. I don’t mind being tested, but I do think it’s sad that this situation exists. Our company (Real Living Realty Services) is adamant about our agents learning about Fair Housing. From what I observe, we also prefer agents who are open-minded about civil rights and who consider people of color as worthy as themselves.
AR is a part of my life but I don’t see every post or blog or comment. That said, having missed the Burress mess doesn’t mean I don’t care about the issue. It does mean that AR is missing me with some of the stuff that happens there. If there are racist comments, xenophobic comments, things that fly in the face of rational thought about rights won and hope for people of color to gain equal footing on all sorts of levels must be addressed.
AR has leadership and I’d say that leadership took the right steps. Monitoring a large site means there likely should be scrambling bots looking for specific wording (kind of like what companies use to determine misuse of email, looking for certain words). Developing such a thing may help alleviate the load that some see as AR ignoring the situation until it blew up.
I stumbled onto a post about this incident on Active Rain. Not knowing what happened I googled Bill’s name and the word lemmings. His “friends” more or less cemented his name in the search engines as a racist by trying to “help” him.
I just happened to come upon this post. I am Black. I am not a Democrat. It is true that the majority of Blacks vote Democrat. However, Burress’ remark is a textbook case of stereotyping–in addition to being racist. I also resent the remark because it posits that Blacks do not think–we just blindly follow the group.
Winsome thank you for your comment. I am also black and it surely walked, talked and looked like a duck..so to me it was clear.
Barry, as I’ve travelled around I’ve come to the conclusion that there will always be those that look down on others as inferior. Here in Iraq obviously there are various factions that hate one another and always will.
However, I also have seen Americans looking down on Bosnian and Serb workers, Bosnian and Serbs that look down on East Indian workers, and East Indians that look down on Iraqi workers. Seems that within every race there are those that feel the need to build themselves up, by looking down on others.
While I was in China and Hong Kong it was the North looking down on the South as lower class, and bit of dislike for Koreans was evident, as well as pure contempt for the Japanese (though slightly understandable due to war crimes).
In Italy I was often told that they didn’t consider Sicilians to be true Italians, and many didn’t like or trust them. Who knew?
It does at times seem that the Black/White issue gets a great deal more attention than so many more horrible examples of racism (such as genocide). I think in many countries if the racism they had to deal with was on the same level as it is in America, they would be so happy (not to imply we can’t still do better).
I didn’t read the Buress article you mentioned so I can’t comment much on it, Banishment always seems harsh. Typically offensive post are simply deleted from websites along with a stern warning. However, Jon’s put a lot of effort into AR, so he can certainly run it as he see’s fit. Interesting article Barry.
Take care, sorry I didn’t get a chance to call the show before deploying.